In this episode of Ayahuasca Podcast host Sam Believ has a conversation with Mike J Roselfeld
Mike J. Rosenfeld is a transformative coach and speaker specializing in neuroscience, flow state optimization, and personal development.
We touch upon topics of flow Psychology, shadow work, psychedelics for high performers and much more.
If you would like to attend one of our Ayahuasca retreats go to
Find more about Mike at
@mikejrosenfeld
Transcript
@MikejRosenfeld (00:03)
So no pueda mover acá porque pueda escuchar todo. Y si tú puedes quitar eso, porque puedes escuchar la agua.
@MikejRosenfeld (00:17)
from practicing Spanish.
Sam Believ (00:18)
Yeah, you’re doing great. Hi guys and welcome to Ayahuasca podcast. As always, we do the homes, the whole assembly of today. I’m interviewing Mike J. Rosenfeld. Mike is a peak performance coach. He is a facilitator. He works with athletes, ⁓ a fortune 500 CEOs and teams and does many other cool things. Mike, welcome to the show.
@MikejRosenfeld (00:22)
Thank you.
@MikejRosenfeld (00:47)
Thank you so much for having me. It’s an honor to be here and thank you for all the work that you’re doing.
Sam Believ (00:52)
Thank you, Mike. Mike, ⁓ before we begin going deep, tell us a little bit about your past and how your life brought you into work with plant medicines and helping others.
@MikejRosenfeld (01:09)
Well, first of all, I believe that we all have the same purpose in this world. Everyone has the same exact purpose, which is to authentically be themselves, to get to know ourselves, to grow. And when we’re in that place, which I refer to as being in our center, we have more clarity, more energy. And not only are our lives better, but our impact on the world is greater.
@MikejRosenfeld (01:35)
And I began learning that at a very early age. I come from an amazing family, great parents, but I developed belief systems as most of us do when I was four years old. And those belief systems were along the lines of, I must not be important. I’m not good enough. I’m not lovable. And the way the belief systems work, of course, is whatever we believe is the lens to which we see the world. And
@MikejRosenfeld (02:00)
That affects the way we think, how we feel, our attitude, and ultimately the actions we take which dictate the outcomes of our life that we identify with. So from a very early age, my identity was one of a person who doesn’t believe in himself and needs to consistently prove his worth.
@MikejRosenfeld (02:20)
And so from a very early age, I got involved in street gangs. I lost a lot of close friends. And eventually I was incarcerated and put into a program for juvenile offenders. And while I was there, I had a traumatic event happen. And that event really helped me develop a connection to spirit and better understand myself.
@MikejRosenfeld (02:47)
And so throughout the course of my life, I was of service to others, oftentimes even sacrificing myself to be of service to others. And ultimately, I realized that everything that I’ve been through, and this is a DMX quote, everything that I’ve been through, there was something that I needed to see in order to become who I’m meant to be.
@MikejRosenfeld (03:13)
and who I am and how I’m showing up now is someone who is first and foremost of service to myself, my family, and to the world. And it’s just the tough times in my life that have allowed me to come back center and listen to that authentic whisper.
@MikejRosenfeld (03:33)
which I believe whispers in the words of what I’m passionate about. Also whispers in the words of where I feel called to develop my gifts and ultimately share my gifts. And plant medicine is one of the arenas that for the last 15 years I have been called to and thankfully been called to.
Sam Believ (03:56)
Thank you for sharing that Mike and something you mentioned, you know, belief systems and negative beliefs. ⁓ I think some people call them shadow beliefs. Like what was that process for you like to let go of those for people that might identify themselves. Maybe somebody believes that I’m not good enough, I’m not lovable, I’m not this, I’m not that. ⁓ What does one do to get over that and change it?
@MikejRosenfeld (04:30)
If we can see the good or God or spirit and everything and everyone, the good or God or spirit will speak to us through everything and everyone. And that includes our belief systems. And so for me, I had an event where I was working in the music industry at a very high level. And my mentor was vice president of
@MikejRosenfeld (04:57)
one of the largest, the largest music and entertainment as well as alcohol companies, Seagrams, which owns Universal Entertainment and CA Records. And I realized the effect that music was having on us and how it was shaping my life. So I founded a foundation for kids, gang members specifically, that used art as therapy.
@MikejRosenfeld (05:24)
But during that time, I was still in my belief system that I’m not enough and that I’m not important. And I was struggling with a massive cocaine addiction. And while at the same time, I was the founder of one of the countries, the United States, most powerful programs, empowerment programs for gang members. And I was brought on to Oprah, Oprah Winfrey.
@MikejRosenfeld (05:51)
to discuss the program while at the same time I was high on cocaine while on the show. And that same night an event occurred where I had a party that went on for a couple days and ultimately what happened is I ran out of drugs, I went to go buy more and as I did a person put a gun to my head and I took everything except the drugs and
@MikejRosenfeld (06:21)
I ended up going back to buy more at the same spot where he put the guns in my head. And as I was driving home, I was listening to that song I mentioned earlier by DMX. And in it, there is a phrase where he’s having this conversation with spirit. He was like, why are you allowing me to go through all of these things when I love you so much? And there was a voice that came in and it said, my child, I watched you grow up and I’ve been there. And even at the time, Julie’s expected it.
@MikejRosenfeld (06:50)
I was there. And then the awareness came in that same song. I get it. And everything that I’ve been through, there’s something that you wanted me to see, so I could be who you wanted me to be. And when I heard that line, I pulled my car over and I stared in the mirror and all of this stuff came up. I’m not good enough. I’m a hypocrite. I’m fooling everyone.
@MikejRosenfeld (07:15)
And in that moment, the awareness happened that I’m not a hypocrite. I’m not fooling everyone. I’m not a bad person. I’m just behaving like one. And so why did all of that happen in my life? What was the blessing behind the shadow? It was for me to really discover how to fall in love with all aspects of myself, to understand the roots of that shadow.
@MikejRosenfeld (07:44)
how it shows up and with shadow work, you know, our shadow has a couple sides to it. You know, being selfish is one of my shadows. And I understood where I became selfish. There was a time in my life where people were taking from me, so I became selfish. And then when you do the work, I realized is selfish good or is it bad? And there’s an aspect of selfishness that I don’t love.
@MikejRosenfeld (08:10)
that’s the shadow, but there’s also an aspect of our shadow that serves us. So for example, when is it not okay for me to be in the shadow when I have an entire pizza and people around me are hungry and I’m keeping it all for myself. That’s the type of selfishness that I don’t love. But the kind of selfishness that I do love is when I take time, tell everyone else, you know what, I need to take care of myself and I really am of support to myself.
@MikejRosenfeld (08:39)
So I began to learn all of these things about the duality and how all aspects of ourself are teaching us things that are ultimately going to bring us back to our center and support our expansion. But when we hate them, we go down a spiral because we begin judging ourselves. And with that judgment creates new thoughts, new feelings, a new attitude that we identify with and new actions.
@MikejRosenfeld (09:03)
But when we love our shadow and we’re able to extract from it the parts of it that are teaching us to be in our integrity and in our expansion, we learn to fall in love with all aspects of ourself. And that’s what happened for me.
Sam Believ (09:18)
That’s a great explanation, Mike. Thank you so much for it. ⁓ Where in this work of, let’s say, working on your own shadow and finding that center, first of all, where in your life the medicine came in? When was it and how? ⁓ And in that line of work, how do you think the plant medicines can be of help?
@MikejRosenfeld (09:47)
For me it was my first ceremony. And I did not go into that ceremony with good intentions. I didn’t even know much about medicine. There was a girl who I was interested in who invited me to the ceremony. And I was like, okay, this is an opportunity for me to get closer to her. The first ceremony I sat with is Santadami.
@MikejRosenfeld (10:13)
which is a very structured ceremony where men were on one side and women on the other. And we would march in place to a drum for a period of time. And what that would do is put us in a transient state.
@MikejRosenfeld (10:26)
And then we had an opportunity to be by herself. And when I was by myself, I was just moving my hands, doing some Tai Chi, and I felt so powerful. And then ultimately, this woman from across the room started singing, but she started singing in a way where she wanted everyone’s attention and for everyone to sing along. And that moment, I realized that I was getting angry with her. And the medicine spoke to me.
@MikejRosenfeld (10:53)
Is it the reason you’re getting angry with her? It’s because you are in resistance to what’s happening in this moment. When you let go of the resistance and you welcome everything, some people call it surrender. When you do that, what happens is you’re now beginning to get into flux. So I started to sing along with her and it felt amazing. And then all of a sudden as I’m singing along with her, she stops abruptly. Whew, I got so angry.
@MikejRosenfeld (11:21)
Here I am, like in my own space and this woman starts singing, she pulls me out of my flow and I get angry and then the medicine says to not resist, to join and I do and then she goes ahead and she stops abruptly. And in that moment, the medicine spoke to me again. You’re in resistance. You were in flow. Something new is happening in this moment and you resisted it and that’s why you’re angry.
@MikejRosenfeld (11:49)
So what I did was I started going back to the Tai Chi and the movements, but it wasn’t working. I wasn’t feeling good. I was in my head and the medicine spoke to me again. And in that moment, it said, it all was in flow until she started singing and you resisted. You joined, got into flow, things changed. You got out of flow and then you went to recreating something from your past.
@MikejRosenfeld (12:14)
But the reason you were in flow in your past is because you were present with that moment. But now you’re trying to bring your past into the present moment and you’re feeling the dissonance. So in that moment, I began to learn how that was showing up in my life and how I was carrying things into the moment as opposed to being in flow with the moment. And when I recognized that, there was this new energy in the room that I got to be with, that I got to dance with, that I got to really feel my connection, not just to myself.
@MikejRosenfeld (12:44)
but to everything you’re out.
Sam Believ (12:47)
It’s a great story. ⁓ You mentioned in flow, right? ⁓ You work with something that’s called flow state psychology. What is that?
@MikejRosenfeld (12:57)
So flow state psychology incorporates neuroscience so it understands our mind, our nervous system, and our body. And ultimately, we’ve heard the term being in the zone or being in flow. When you’re in the zone or you’re in flow, you’re really connected to everything.
@MikejRosenfeld (13:18)
you’re able to move with ease and grace, and we’re able to perform at the highest levels. This is why you’ll see a basketball player constantly knocking down a shot, or when someone’s dancing, like they’re just flowing with ease and grace. Scientifically, it’s called transient hypofrontality. Transient hypofrontality. Transient means temporary. Hypo is the opposite of hyper. Frontality is the front cerebral cortex.
@MikejRosenfeld (13:48)
So when someone’s in flow state, their brain waves begin to slow down, their body produces healthy endorphins, and all that they’ve been developing throughout the course of their life, their authentic power, their unique gifts and strengths are front and center because the ego or the mind is quiet. And so this is, I work with world champion athletes, I work with very large companies and celebrities, helping them rewire their subconscious and their nervous system.
@MikejRosenfeld (14:18)
but also learn how to access flow state on demand because now science has taught us exactly what’s happening in the body when we’re in flow, but it has also taught us how to access flow state on demand by utilizing four different channels. And for each person, we may favor a specific channel or a combination of channels over other channels, depending on what our
@MikejRosenfeld (14:46)
blockages are that are preventing us from being in the moment. And so we use this in ceremony to allow us to really connect to the moment so that the medicine can really work within us and we’re able to listen, listen to what the medicine is showing us, observe what it means, visualize what our life is like when we honor this message.
@MikejRosenfeld (15:15)
and really work on what we can do to express it. Listen, observe, visualize, express, love. That’s a formula that we do when in ceremony that allows us to also get into flow and optimize what’s happening when we are in flow.
Sam Believ (15:31)
So let’s listen, observe, visualize.
@MikejRosenfeld (15:34)
Express.
Sam Believ (15:36)
Press.
Sam Believ (15:39)
Talk to us more about that. I think that’s very interesting. ⁓ So you said one person might enjoy one of those four channels more than the other. ⁓ So how might that look like? You know, somebody is more visual, somebody’s more auditory or what is going on there?
@MikejRosenfeld (16:00)
Yeah, so you’re mentioning one of the four channels or part of one of the four channels. So the first channel are our five senses. And again, when you think of flow state, think of the slowing down of that inner critic, yeah? And so just imagine walking into your grandmother’s house and she’s baking something and it just like calms your mind.
@MikejRosenfeld (16:23)
So smell is the most powerful of the senses. But also imagine there may be different music or different textures or things that you see that can really begin to slow your mind. And so yes, one of the four channels are our five senses. And by the way, the opposite of flow could be considered anxiety or hyper thinking where our minds are racing. And so,
@MikejRosenfeld (16:51)
One of the four channels again is the five senses. The second of the four channels are the people and the environment in which we’re around. So if we’re surrounding ourselves with people who are always creating a space where we feel unsafe to be in our authentic expression, we’re gonna constantly be in our head, the opposite of flow. So when I go into pro sports teams or companies,
@MikejRosenfeld (17:17)
We want to create a space where people can feel safe to be in their brilliance. Same in so many ways. The third, so the second are people environment. The third is different breathing sequences. And so a breath is not a breath is not a breath. For example, there are specific breathing sequences that we can do to slow our heart rate.
@MikejRosenfeld (17:45)
There’s specific breathing exercises we can do to raise our energy level. There’s specific breathing exercises we can do to hone in and focus on one thing. There’s also specific breathing exercises we can do to be in a universal focus where we’re just in a place of awareness. There’s breathing we can do to cool our body, to heat our body. And so when we understand the breathing sequences, we can…
@MikejRosenfeld (18:11)
slow our minds down and allow ourselves to be completely present in the moment. The last of the four channels are our thought processes. Our thought processes. An example of a thought process that can either put us in flow or take us into anxiety is what we see is what we see and how we see it affects the way we think and feel.
@MikejRosenfeld (18:40)
and the emotions and the chemicals that our body produces. So an example of a flow state perspective is that anything that you deem or call negative, you just gave it the power over you. And so earlier I said, if you can see God or good or a blessing in everything and everyone, you’ll receive the blessing from everything and everyone.
@MikejRosenfeld (19:05)
And so in a game, for example, if something shows up in a game and a person is resisting it and they’re angry about it, it’s going to affect how they feel in the moment and how they perform going forward. Same thing in ceremony. If we’re having an experience where the medicine is showing us something, where our body is feeling something and we dislike it, we’re going to contract. Our body is going to tighten. Our breathing is going to become short and shallow.
@MikejRosenfeld (19:33)
and we’re going to stay in that moment and even create stories about it. So when you combine all of them, we recognize that the breathing has a sound which lends to the first of the four, the five senses. You can hear it. You can feel it. You also recognize that 70 % of our metabolic waste is released through our breathing. And whatever our psychological or emotional state or physiological state is,
@MikejRosenfeld (20:03)
will affect the way we breathe. When we’re angry, we’ll breathe a certain way. When we’re worried, we’ll breathe another way. So we hold onto those toxins and we contract around them. And we just exacerbate the downward spiral. And just as our breathing affects our psychology, we can shift our psychology and our physiology through our breathing. And so when we utilize all the four and play it in different combinations, we call this flow code, which is
@MikejRosenfeld (20:31)
tapping into your unique code for being in our center, which means out of our head, in our authentic space. Then not only are we able to live calm and think clear and have energy, but we’re able to perform at the highest of levels also and respond to challenges in the most beautiful ways.
Sam Believ (20:56)
Any specific breathing techniques that you can recommend to our listeners, something quick and easy to learn that maybe can help them go from anxiety to the flow.
@MikejRosenfeld (21:09)
For ceremony or just in life both? The idea…
Sam Believ (21:13)
Whatever is coming up for you.
@MikejRosenfeld (21:17)
The same, you can use both in ceremony, cold plunge, life, whenever there’s a challenge. It’s a process called connect to direct. And so what that means is if someone has anxiety for a moment, right, if somebody’s experiencing anxiety, oftentimes they dislike it. Nobody likes that feeling. So they go to run from it, they hate it, they move it away, or try to resist it, or mask it.
@MikejRosenfeld (21:46)
And in doing so, what happens is going back to the fourth channel, they’re giving it the power to master them. So step one in the breathing exercise is to allow yourself to breathe however you’re feeling. So if I’m feeling anxious, breathe anxious.
@MikejRosenfeld (22:08)
It’s like if a child is coming to you and they have a problem, you don’t say everything’s fine and push them away. You allow yourself to be present with them, to listen to them, to be with them. Same thing with the anxiety. The second part is move. So if I’m feeling anxiety, breathe anxiety and move anxiety.
@MikejRosenfeld (22:29)
Usually call it front and center without resisting it, right? So it’s breathe, move, and then listen. What is it teaching you at the moment? Why is it showing up? Because if you can see the good in everything and everyone, you’ll receive the good in everything and everyone. And as you do that, you begin to then slowly, the same three things, shift your breathing from anxious,
@MikejRosenfeld (22:59)
into calm, shift your body movement from anxious
@MikejRosenfeld (23:06)
and to calm and shift your thoughts. So the breath, the first one is connected to our lungs, connected to our nervous system. The movement is important because the oxygen flows throughout our body. When we’re contracted, we’re keeping it in one space, but when we move it, we’re able to send that oxygen to every cell and to every organ, to our mind, to our heart, to every muscle. So we’re actually channeling what we once were calling bad or negative.
@MikejRosenfeld (23:34)
And now we’re channeling it and really connecting to the beauty of it, using the energy of it for and not against ourselves. And then our thoughts, now we’re rewiring, we’re creating new neurotransmitters and new thought patterns. The beauty of what that experience was. An amazing example of that was a little while ago, I was at the Berkeley Center in New York.
@MikejRosenfeld (24:02)
with a guy who I’d been a professional fighter and this guy had a championship fight. He was fighting for two belts. Big fight. And the process was I was working with him for two months ahead of time. My mission was to understand what his heart desired, what his mind believed, and how that belief was suffocating what he desired, and then to give him tools so that he can really show up.
@MikejRosenfeld (24:31)
in a way that really supports his desire, wiring his mind and his subconscious and his nervous system to support that. And then when he was feeling off center and feeling something that was not ideal, to give him the tools of that moment to come back to center. And as we were walking down the aisle for his fight, I noticed that he was tight and nervous. And I asked him in that moment, how do you feel? And if he would have said, everything’s fine, I knew.
@MikejRosenfeld (25:01)
I would have known that he disliked what he was feeling and now was about to give him, give that feeling the power over him. But what he said is, I’m nervous as hell. Amazing. We surrender to the fact that we’re feeling this way. And then I asked him, does it make sense that you’re nervous? Of course it does. There’s 30 ,000 people in the stadium. There is millions of people watching. He’s about to step into the ring to achieve what he’s been working towards his entire life.
@MikejRosenfeld (25:30)
Of course he’s nervous. Why wouldn’t he be? It’s okay to be. Then I asked him, it’s a formula of W -I -N, which is what’s important now? And he said, for me to go out there and give my very best to perform at the highest level. And I asked him, for that to happen, what two attributes must you connect to? And he said, calm and fluid.
@MikejRosenfeld (25:56)
And so what we did was we walked about 100 yards from where we were in that moment to going into the ring. And we first, step one, connected to the breathing that he was feeling anxious. Connected to the body language. Made peace with why. And then got clear of what he wanted and shift the breathing from anxious to calm and fluid. And it looked like this.
@MikejRosenfeld (26:27)
Before you know it he was using all that energy for and not against himself and he went out there and he won the world championship. It’s that easy it’s that simple. We’re like these great machines that we’ve never been taught how we operate so we drive ourselves like we’re Ferrari’s but we drive ourselves like we’re like 1970 Pinto’s not knowing that we have bells and whistles that no matter what we’re feeling we’re able to shift.
@MikejRosenfeld (26:57)
into a more powerful state while at the same time processing what we’re going through and allowing it to actually work for and not against us.
Sam Believ (27:08)
great story and I’m glad I’m glad he won. ⁓ Otherwise, it might have had a different connotation. ⁓ So talking about athletes and you know, a lot of people see athletes as you know, somebody very physical and maybe not that smart and not that connected. But in reality, it’s a very, it’s a very complicated thing to go and fight and be in front of people. And a lot of athletes are now getting interested in plant medicines as well. So I recently interviewed
@MikejRosenfeld (27:11)
Yeah.
Sam Believ (27:39)
Ian McCain who is a former UFC champion who switched from working from fighting to now helping athletes overcome traumatic brain injury with ayahuasca. ⁓ Have you observed, have you worked with traumatic brain injury? ⁓ Have you worked with athletes and ayahuasca and have you noticed what are the results like?
@MikejRosenfeld (28:06)
I have not traumatic brain injury per se, but more around, you know, how do I get out of my own way? And like really allow myself to connect to my authentic power, feel free, and then optimize my experience. And plant medicine really is good for that. Now, with that being said, I like to…
@MikejRosenfeld (28:33)
share a framework around plant medicine that I subscribe to. I believe that we have different avatars. So one of our avatars is our spirit. And our spirit is what connects us to all things, all time, all place, all space, to each other, to all possible outcomes, because everything is one. And so the first avatar is our spirit.
@MikejRosenfeld (29:02)
The second avatar is our heart. And I believe for each of us, spirit lives in our heart. And when we get to know the truth of our heart, and we begin to listen to that truth and even dance or live with that truth, we call that authenticity. And so throughout our lives, our heart is constantly teaching us and guiding us.
@MikejRosenfeld (29:30)
But our mind, the third avatar, is the most powerful in that the power that we use to create is the same power we use to destroy. And we’re either using that power for or against ourselves. So if my heart is yearning for a certain experience, but my mind is saying, can’t, you shouldn’t, you’re not enough this, you’re too much that, and then what we’re doing is we’re suffocating the truth. And the fourth avatar is our body.
@MikejRosenfeld (29:59)
And our body is the indicator to when we are in or out of alignment. So when we feel certain things such as angst or depression or rage, sadness, it’s simply a beautiful thing where our body is saying, hey, you’re off center. ⁓ good. My body is working. It’s teaching me where I’m off center. Just like when a light in a car comes on and says you’re out of oil.
@MikejRosenfeld (30:28)
You may not like the fact that the light’s on because you have to go drive back into and get the oil changed. We may not like that we’re feeling these things because we have work to do to come back into our center, but our body is teaching us that we’re out of center. And different medicines work for different avatars. So a lot of my work is with Yahi and Ayahuasca, but also with Wachuma. And they’re totally different medicines and they work on different avatars.
@MikejRosenfeld (30:56)
And so depending where someone is in their life, there’s a medicine that may be more appropriate to meet them where they are and support them.
Sam Believ (31:07)
So in this paradigm, ⁓ ayahuasca is for the heart, I assume, or for what is it?
@MikejRosenfeld (31:15)
No, it’s actually for the mind and the spirit. No, they’re all connected. And so, you know, everything affects something else and opens up. But if you just think of it, an Ayahuasca journey.
@MikejRosenfeld (31:29)
Oftentimes you’ll see things, you’ll have a lot of different thoughts, you’ll be able to go back on your life and see different experiences that you had and learn from them and reframe them. You’ll be able to see in the future and project what it is that you’re looking to create. It’s not exclusive, but the teachings that I have learned through my tithes, through my shamans, through my guides.
@MikejRosenfeld (31:56)
that Ayahuasca is for the mind and the spirit. Huachuma, peyote are more heart medicines where you’re able to really tune in and listen to your authentic whisper and really connect to what’s there. Ayahuasca will take you where she wants you to go.
@MikejRosenfeld (32:18)
with Wachuma and it’s beautiful because it’s showing us and we’re gaining so much from it and it’s so powerful. It’s a different experience from Wachuma Empirica which is more like tuning into the frequency of who you are, falling back in love.
@MikejRosenfeld (32:36)
They all have their place in space.
Sam Believ (32:39)
What about other traditional psychedelics like mushrooms, for example? What are they for?
@MikejRosenfeld (32:48)
mental, that’s the mind. It really helps create new neural pathways. It really helps us to wire, rewire. And this is why when, this is very powerful. I’m glad you’re asking me about this particular one because it’s very common now, more common than ever before for people to microdose. Like it’s becoming, it’s becoming a thing. There’s a lot of popularity to it.
@MikejRosenfeld (33:17)
And the thing with microdosing is it can either catapult us into a whole new beautiful experience of ourselves and our life, or it can have the opposite effect. Just like the way to look at it is steroids. If you take steroids and you lift weights, it’s building the muscle, right? Same thing with microdosing.
@MikejRosenfeld (33:41)
If I am taking, if I’m sitting with the medicine and I’m constantly having a negative experience, negative thoughts throughout the day, I’m really reading those neural pathways and creating a neuroplasticity around them. And so to all the listeners, I would really highly recommend that if you are doing a microdosing program, that you have a structure around it that supports regular check -ins throughout the day where you’re able to check in with yourself and do the same
@MikejRosenfeld (34:11)
process that I just shared earlier that allows you to feel what you’re feeling and then take that feeling into creating new neuro pathways that support the truth of your heart.
Sam Believ (34:21)
Yeah, it’s a very important message because medicines are inherently neutral. You can use them for good, you can use them for bad and that flexibility that your mind achieves through psychedelics, you know, that’s scientifically proven. ⁓ The BDNF, neuroplasticity, if you then have a lot of negative experiences around your life while you’re doing it, it’s going to make it
Sam Believ (34:49)
even more negative in a way it’s kind of like let’s say your life it’s easy you can use plant medicines to work on a trauma but if you take a lot of plant medicines while you’re experiencing the trauma it will be difficult and that’s something I’m learning myself as well I’ve been thinking about recently because running a retreat center where you both do the events and you also run the physical side of things it’s kind of like
Sam Believ (35:18)
running five businesses at the same time. You have a restaurant, you have a hotel, you have the retreat center itself, the informational side of it, the spiritual side of it, the promotion, the advertising, ⁓ the dealing with people, talking to people. It’s just so complex. And I realized sometimes I drink the medicine and then next day there are issues and I’m no longer as tough as I normally would be because my tough shell is gone and I’m all open and you know.
Sam Believ (35:47)
and it just hits me so hard. ⁓ So you gotta choose wisely when and how you work with the medicine. Any thoughts on that?
@MikejRosenfeld (35:56)
And I appreciate you saying that. Because even different medicines have become or are becoming more mainstream. And oftentimes, you know, people just show up for a ceremony and then they just leave, right? And what happens in ceremony is we may connect to a consciousness, a beautiful consciousness, and learn and gain. And then we go back to where we come from.
@MikejRosenfeld (36:25)
And it’s the same consciousness that we left. And so now I’m in this new space and I’m going home and there’s this old consciousness. And it can easily trigger us back into that. And when it does, it can have a really hurtful effect if we don’t have the right structure and systems, which means the retreat center or the people who you’re working with aren’t providing the correct integration program.
@MikejRosenfeld (36:49)
it can have a detrimental effect because I felt this, why can’t I bring this back into the world? Why is this happening to me? It can actually create a shame cycle. And so we want to always prepare so that when someone goes back into the world, no matter what their experience was, they have the very specific tools to A,
@MikejRosenfeld (37:12)
make their experience more sustainable to integrate, but also when they’re triggered to not go down the spiral of the trigger, but instead use that trigger to create an upward experience, a deeper experience.
Sam Believ (37:28)
So you mentioned integration, right? Let’s talk about a little bit because let’s say somebody comes into the ceremony and they have this beautiful experience and all this understanding, and then they go back to their life and it’s stressful and it’s not what they want it to be. ⁓ How does, in your paradigm, in your way of working with things, what do you like to recommend to people integration -wise?
@MikejRosenfeld (37:57)
Every integration should have a framework, which means it should have a intention behind it and a technology. For example, it could be like neuroscience teachings or flow state teachings or meditative teachings or journaling and things like that. It should have a framework on how to integrate. And then with that framework, there should be a strategy. How do we incorporate this?
@MikejRosenfeld (38:27)
How do we do this on a daily basis? And how do we do this like in an if this, then that type of situation? If I’m feeling this, then do that. Okay, go through this process. And it should also offer specific tools that support that.
@MikejRosenfeld (38:45)
When there’s a strong framework, when there’s a strong strategy, when there are really powerful tools. And the last thing is support. Generally, in my experience, people are able to consistently expand and grow and take the experience that they had on the medicine and allow it to not just be a memory or an epiphany, but instead something that is still working for them. Because the medicine is always there.
@MikejRosenfeld (39:14)
And all we need to do is go back to it, call upon it, converse with it, and a strong framework strategy and tools will help with that.
Sam Believ (39:24)
Great explanation great advice You know, I’ve been Analyzing like you you’ve done so many things in your life, right you went From being a gang member and being in a military school and learning how to be a rabbi Your life is definitely not not the usual one and I see both from my own story and from many people that I Find are working with the helping others is that?
Sam Believ (39:50)
they themselves had a very difficult life and it’s almost as if certain people have it difficult to learn and to help others. Do you consciously think about it? Like what do you think, ⁓ what is your purpose, right? ⁓ Where is it all pushing you towards?
@MikejRosenfeld (40:12)
Yeah, I do. And I always love to say that we have the same purpose, which is to be in our center, to be our authentic selves. And when we’re in that space, what happens, we have clarity, and that clarity directs us to what our next mission is. So I like to, it’s just words, but I like to make a distinction between the word purpose and mission.
@MikejRosenfeld (40:37)
Because 15 years ago when I was running my charity, if I would have said this is my life’s purpose, now 15 years later I’m still doing that work, it would be completely unfulfilling. And so when we’re tuned in to our center, we call that Sintrata, when we’re tuned in to our center, that’s where we get to hear our calling. And that helps us with like, okay, so I used to be passionate about boxing.
@MikejRosenfeld (41:02)
Not anymore. Now I’m passionate about these things. I used to want to give back to these issues. Not anymore. What’s calling me is, what’s calling me now is this. And so the people who I work with, a lot of them, yeah, they do come from difficult. We all have had trauma in our life, different experiences. And when we come into center, we’re able to process them. We’re able to learn from them. And they actually become our guide and our fuel.
Sam Believ (41:33)
Yeah, it’s like you mentioned in that ceremony experience where you were trying to bring one kind of experience in a different timeframe and as per flow, you know, flow of water, flow of the river. You cannot enter the same river twice, right? The water that was there the moment 15 minutes ago is now gone. So as life goes on, we also need to adjust and sort of constantly
Sam Believ (42:01)
look at our navigation system and it’s like if you turn right, it doesn’t mean the next turn is also gonna be right or you keep going straight. So that’s a very wise way of looking at life and I think that’s what we’re gonna leave our listeners with. ⁓ Sit down and journal about it, maybe reconsider if what you’re doing is the right thing for you now or maybe something else is coming up.
Sam Believ (42:28)
Mike, thank you so much for sharing all this. I think it’s very insightful and can be very helpful to our listeners, ⁓ both in ceremony and out of the ceremony. ⁓ Where can people learn more about you and connect with you?
@MikejRosenfeld (42:46)
So my website is Centrada, C -E -N -T -R -A -D -A dot co, C -O, Centrada dot co. Centrada means to return to your center. And all of my social media is Mike J. Rosenfeld. And I would love to be able to…
@MikejRosenfeld (43:09)
interact and learn more about your listeners, your followers, and in any way I can support you in anything you’re doing up here. And I truly appreciate you taking the time to meet with me today.
Sam Believ (43:21)
Thank you, Mike. Guys, ⁓ check Mike’s stuff out. He has some interesting speeches on YouTube. ⁓ He’s a great speaker, very entertaining. Check this out. ⁓ And yeah, Mike, ⁓ thanks again. ⁓
@MikejRosenfeld (43:36)
I’m also happy to share the love formula, listen, observe, visualize, and express with you because that.
@MikejRosenfeld (43:46)
Exercise was what that happened when I was incarcerated and I was afraid that I was dying And I wanted to talk to God and I didn’t know how to so I would ask and then listen observe visualize and express what was coming to me and it’s a really beautiful way to come back into your Center and to listen to that guidance so if you like I’m happy to share that with you and all those who are watching
Sam Believ (44:10)
You heard him guys, listen, observe, visualize and express. We’ll leave you with that. Guys, you’ve been listening to Ayahuasca podcast. ⁓ As always, we do the whole assembly of thank you for listening and I’ll see you in the next episode.